Mastering Everyday Negotiation: Conflict Resolution, Race, Virtual Comms & The Compassionate Curiosity Framework with Kwame Christian | S2 Ep.5

Welcome, everyone. You're now locked into the Sound of Accra podcast. I

go by the name of Adrian Daniels, and in this show,

we chat with colorful creatives and entrepreneurs from a Ghanaian

background. All the interest to the city of Accra,

bringing you one step closer to Accra, wherever you are. Now,

on this week's episode, I am joined by none other

than Kwame Christian. Now, if you don't know about

Kwame Christian, you he is the host of the world's most popular

negotiation podcast called Negotiate Anything, which is all

about empowering others through the art and science of

negotiation and persuasion. Now, this podcast has been downloaded over

1.5 million times in counting across over

180 countries, which is pretty impressive.

Kwame is also a TEDx speaker, and he's also the director of the

American Negotiation Institute, where he conducts trainings that

empower professionals to persuade, lead, and resolve conflict with

more effectively. Now, on this week's episode, we discuss

Kwame's decorative career and accomplishments, how conflict

resolution skills has been key to a year filled with conflict in

2020, be it politics, Black Lives Matter, and so much

more. We talk about Kwame's podcast, Negotiate Anything. And

we talk about how you can negotiate anything and get out of your

own way, as well as how 2020 has forced

everyday professionals to adjust the way they may negotiate

or conduct conflict resolution in

persuasion facing roles virtually. Now, for today's show notes

and for a full bio of Kwame Christian, head over to

thesoundofacar.com Kwame

Christian. That's the sound of a crowd. Dot com forward slash,

Kwame Christian. Kwame Christian is spelled K W A

M E C H R I S T

I A N. Now, without further ado, let's get straight into

the episode. Take care.

Welcome, everyone. So I'd like to welcome Kwame Christian to the show.

I'm a really, really big fan of everything that he's doing. Kwame, how are you

doing? How are you feeling? Hey, Adrian. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, man.

No, thank you for coming on the show. So

what happened was me and kwame reconnected on LinkedIn.

So this was a time where I discovered

Kwame's body of work, and I decided to give him a

shout out to what he was doing at the time. And, you know, I was

fortunate enough for Kwame to respond back to me. And now we're

here doing this podcast. I'm really, really excited to have you on the show today.

Yeah, yeah. So I hear you're a big cereal. Cereal Guy. So

Cinnamon toast. Yeah. Yes. It's so funny, man. That's like my

calling card now. We just closed on a house

today, and our realtor got me a big box of Cinnamon Toast

Crunch as a, as a congr. So, yeah. Oh,

congrats, man. Congrats. Congratulations. Yeah, I mean, I'm

quite a cereal guy myself, so, I mean, I think Fruity

Loops is the American story that I used to like a lot. But I

gotta be honest with you, American food has a lot of sugar, so I have

to kind of take, take care when I'm eating American

food. Yeah, you're, that's smart. We are, we're, you

know, we're not that healthy over here. It's funny, my, my family's from the

Caribbean. My dad's a doctor and my wife's a doctor, too. And

so dad was starting his practice. He recognized

that steering it towards obesity

was fruitful in America.

Yeah, obesity. I mean, it's quite easy to put on weight, I

suppose, with, you know, the amount of sugar and the amount of fats that's in

some of the food out there. But, hey, look at you. You're looking good looking

slim, and that's, that's what's up. Thank you. I'm trying. It's not

easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can totally

imagine. So, yeah, I just want to get straight it. So

it's you. I think you're actually the first Kwame that I've met

that's not actually Ghanaian, which is quite funny. Yeah,

I, I, I am. Everybody thinks I'm Ghanaian, and usually

I kind of just go away with it. Go with it. Yes. Yeah. One of

you, I'm part of the team. Right. But, but

yeah, my family, they just admired Kwame and Kuruma a lot,

and so that was the name they went with first. Oh,

fantastic. And do you know much about Kwame Nkrumah? I know he

was, he was the first president of Ghana. Right? Yeah, yeah,

yeah. So I remember the, the liberation story. I think it's really

cool, you know, and it's, for me, it's, it's interesting because both of

my, my mom's side, my dad's side, they were the generation,

like, of independence in their countries. So my, my grandfather

was in the first administration in, in Guyana as permanent

secretary. My, on my dad's side, they're really

politics. One of my uncle wrote the score for the national anthem. Another one was

prime minister. Yeah. So we, I, I really like

being with my having my name tied with those types of

liberation stories. That's absolutely fascinating. Yeah, I

mean I'm sure you're really proud of it. And I mean just to

speak on the back of that, I mean there were a lot of African Americans

that came to Ghana last year during the year return

periods. So I mean you had celebrities, you had all

types of, of people, but of African Americans come to

Ghana to discover the roots and to, you know, explore the country. And

it's really, really fascinating to meet a lot of Americans out there.

Yeah, that's a really beautiful story. Thank you. Yeah,

really beautiful story. So Kwame, speaking of. So now

that we're on the topic of Africa, I do recall that

you did the peace cabal workshop in, in

based out of Nigeria, right? That's right. Yeah. I have an intern who's in

Lagos and yeah, so she, she's really the person

who, who spearheaded that olosion and

she's fantastic. And she, I said

listen this with this internship, it's a community service type of internship. So you

identify a problem, you create the parameters, I'll give you the resources

and the mentorship and guidance you need to get it done. And then I just

sat back and watched her work and it was incredible. She did a great job.

So it was about, I think it was a 10 week program for kids between

the of 15 and 20, all about how

you can learn negotiation and conflict resolution for peace building

purposes and leadership within your communities. And I think the timing

couldn't have been better. Very, very much so. Because I was going

to segue into the whole SARS protests and

I found it really fascinating how you did this workshop, you know, maybe

months or maybe weeks just before the whole outbreak in

Nigeria took place. So I really appreciate and I really

admire the work that you, that you're doing in Africa and

it's good to know that you're not just focused on America. And obviously we're going

to get into your podcast, negotiate anything which reaches over

180 countries, right? That's right. Yeah. I mean that's a

really good podcast as well. But yeah, I mean it's really great to see the

work you're doing in Africa and I'm looking forward to you

doing a lot more in the future. Thank you.

And I just wish I could invest more and we're trying to find ways to

dig deeper and provide more support. If

it wasn't Covid world, I would be on a plane and getting there doing

stuff. But you know, we're limited but we're trying to do what we can. Yeah,

I can totally Appreciate that. Speaking of COVID

one of your latest episodes on your podcast, you're talking about

conflict resolution and negotiation in the. In the COVID world.

And I found that episode quite fascinating because

usually when it comes to negotiation, right. I mean, I've got a

background in sales. I've been in sales and, you know, negotiation for about 10

years, kind of career. And one thing with. When you come

into selling or some kind of negotiation is really important

to be face to face with the individual. It's really, really important

to be able to gauge the body language. So a question that I've got for

you, Kwame, is how would you

overcome that obstacle when you're dealing with conflict

resolution or negotiation online? Because you lose

that part of it, don't you? Absolutely. Well, I think what we have to do

is recognize that we need to

overemphasize in many ways, the rapport building

process, because if we're in person, then I can get a better

sense of who you are. It's just more comfortable, it's more real.

But if I'm not there physically with you, then I need to say,

all right, well, let's say hypothetically, if I were in person,

maybe we'll have two or three minutes of small talk before we

get into the actual business side. But I'm online, I'm

gonna have, okay, five, six, five to ten minutes of

small talk. I'm like, I. I really want you to know I'm a decent person

here before we get into it, you know, because

that, that simple thing helps to build some trust and,

and makes the conversation a lot easier. Absolutely. So it's all about

building rapport, you're saying before kind of building up to

the, you know, to the negotiation stage of whatever it is

that you're trying to do. Yeah, exactly. And I think we have to be mindful

of using the right communication tool at the right time, you

know, because we have email, we have a regular call,

then we have potentially text messaging, depending on the relationship, and then we have

video call. And so each different, each

one has its own strength. That's the interesting part. And

so email is great for framing the conversation beforehand, setting the

agenda and getting things in order before we have the conversation. And then

it's also good after the fact for when we are summarizing things

and sending documents and things like that. But if we're

trying to actually have the bulk of the conversation via email, then we're probably using

that tool inappropriately. You pick up the phone or something.

Yeah, I can totally understand that. That's a very good point

because, you know, whether it's emails, texts, it could be

WhatsApp, it could be phone, video call. I mean, it's just amazing

the technology that we have and the different touch points that we can make with

different people and the different ways we can connect with people. And

I find that very interesting how, you know, if you combine

or use those tools appropriately, it can be quite

powerful when trying to communicate a message to somebody else. So I

definitely appreciate the message that you just shared.

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And I mentioned

the SARS protests in Nigeria earlier on.

I think this year. I mean, it's safe to say that it's a whole year

of conflict, hasn't it? It's been a whole year of conflict. And I

mean, I think you're the guy when it comes to conflict resolution.

Let's talk about your LinkedIn course. So, I mean, I know recently that

LinkedIn and yourself released a course on LinkedIn learning.

Was this that came on the back of the Black Lives

Matter kind of protests and you know, the George Floyd, everything

that was taking place earlier on the year, I mean, am I safe to say,

was that influenced by that? Absolutely, yeah, because we,

we did a course on LinkedIn on how to have difficult

conversations about race and another one driving change and anti racism within

your organization. And directly connected,

directly connected to that because they were looking at their, their

library and they're saying, well, we don't have anything that really address in this

specific way. And I have a background in doing civil rights work

and when you background and you blend it with negotiation

and conflict resolution, I'm uniquely qualified to

carry that conversation. And the response was really good.

And one of the courses even made it to number three, like the third most

popular course on LinkedIn for that for a time period, which is really

cool because I have like 5,000 courses.

So that was great. And it's just great to see the feedback. I think that's

the biggest thing where people are reaching out and saying, hey, this course was

really, really helpful. So I'm just, just trying to create

content that is specific, you know, to get

static when you're okay, negotiation, business negotiation, conflict

resolution, this stuff is always happening. You're just recycling the same material over and

over again. Yeah, but I want to go to where the, the

most difficult conflicts are. Like, what's happening? What is that?

Okay, create content for that. And here in the States, you know, we just had

the election two days ago and still going,

still going on, still going on. I feel like it's gonna be a bit.

But the. I partnered with LinkedIn to do a course on how to

have difficult conversations about politics because, again,

slightly different nuances there with race and politics and all of these things.

So I just try to be a resource where people need me. Fantastic. And

is. Is the course about politics with LinkedIn, is that out, or is that

something you're working on? It just came out. No way.

Congratulations. I think this is your year, because. Just

conflict everywhere, isn't it? I know I

was telling people when, when the election was coming out, I said, well, you

know, I think there's a. A candidate that would lead

to more peace. And I think peace is good, and there's a

candidate that leads to more conflict. And I said, well, that's not

good for other people, but that's good for business. It's true.

It's very true. Because, I mean, obviously there's. It's

very clear that the Democrats and the

Republicans, you know, that they both have completely opposite agendas. You know,

Trump wants to cut taxes, he wants to, you know, do this, he wants to

do that. And then you have Biden, who is, you know, he's pro choice. He's

this. He's. That is completely different. So that itself

is just a massive conflict, let alone what the outcome is of

the elections. There's still going to be conflicts regardless of the outcome. And I find

that so fascinating. Absolutely. And the, the thing that's interesting,

too, is that relationships are at stake, because

even beyond the, the politics, it's like, all right, well, I have to go and

talk to my parents, and then they think something differently. Right. Or I have

a crew. You know, everybody has that crazy uncle. Right.

But with the course, it's not just the, like those familial

relationships and friends, but also recognizing that

at work, people aren't getting along and they're not able to

overcome that and be productive. And so that was the

catalyst for the course there, too. Absolutely. And I

think, obviously I, I went through one of your courses.

I think it was Driving Change and Racism. I think that was the one.

You had so many good points. I mean, I'll just take in so many notes,

but some of the, Some of the points that stood out to me was when

you're talking about how you. How dealing with your leadership,

if you're working an organization, you're dealing with leaders, how it's really important

to be able to have a good relationship with them because

they have a lot of power. And one thing that kept coming

up in whether it's your courses, whether it's your

podcast, whether it's your TED Talk. One thing that kept coming up,

which I'm going to move on to next, is your

framework, the compassion. How does it go again?

Yes, the Compassionate Curiosity Framework. Framework.

That's correct. Yeah. And I know you got book on Amazon, out on Amazon. We'll

probably get to that in just a moment. But that's one thing that came up

in everything, everything that you do. But speaking of the

book that you released on Amazon, Kwame, there was one testimonial

that I saw on there and it just made, I mean, it just

summed it up for me because when it comes to negotiation,

when it comes to negotiation. Right. People tend to

kind of think, okay, there's tricks, there's, there's, you know, there's quick wins,

there's, there's little words you can do, little things you can say to intimidate the

other person. You know, you can overcome it or, you know, just

try and, you know, be smart. But the person

who is writing the testimony for your book on Amazon, they were just talking

about, you know, you know, this book is not about any trickery. It's just

about, you know, dealing with the psychology, which people overlook

a lot. And I find that very, very interesting. And I

think it's very true because I think you make it, I mean,

it's not as difficult as it should be negotiation. And I think you

have a very good way of making it sound more simpler

and more straightforward and more practical for anyone to apply in

any, any part of their lives. Yeah. Well, thank you, Adrian. I appreciate that.

Yeah. But, yeah, you're right. That's one of the things I recognize that

in, in the field we can get a little bit academic

sometimes. You know, it's like, okay, well, that sounds really good. That

theory makes sense to me, but I don't know what to do. Right.

That's, that's the thing. So, and so I wanted to make it approachable. And that's

why podcast, I call it Negotiate Anything, because I want people to

recognize it's not just these high level transactional stuff we're talking about.

It's everyday life, these everyday conversations with family, friends,

colleagues at work. We're negotiating all the time. And the

Compassionate Curiosity Framework is the tool that allows us to do it. And so

what's funny is with my five year old, I use the Compassionate Curiosity

Framework. And then with opposing counsel in my business negotiations, I'm

using that when I'm teaching lawyers and other professionals how to negotiate. I'm

using it, too. It's so flexible. And so the first step is,

first, acknowledging and validating emotions. The second step

is getting curious with compassion. And then the third step is joint problem

solving. But I think what's so important, going back to what you said about the

psychology, is that we start off with that emotional element, because

a lot of times we are trying to persuade somebody who's not psychologically

ready to absorb that message. They're too emotional for whatever

reason. Right. And so we have to acknowledge that emotion,

get them to calm down, and then we can transition into more substantive

conversation. Absolutely. And you gave some very good

examples in your TED Talk, in your podcast as well, on how

to use the framework in practical situations. And

what stood out for me was that you kind of

deflected. I mean, you found a way to deflect

the person who was offended or needed a conflict

to be resolved. And then you kind of humbled

yourself, and then you kind of just talk them.

You talk to them in a. In a nice way to be able to kind

of, you know, be on their side and to try and solve

their problem and to show support. And is

this something that you actually. You created, or is it the framework that

exists anyway? No, the framework is something I

created, and it was just taken from my own experience

negotiating. And I was trying to put words to

the process that I kind of do organically. And so I wanted

it to be simple, easy to remember, and then that's what I came up with.

Fantastic. Yeah. I mean, this is powerful framework. And

coming back to your book, is this something that you explore a lot

more in your. In. In one of your Amazon books that you. That you released?

Absolutely. So my book is Finding Confidence in Conflict, how to

negotiate anything and live your best Life. And so that's where

we go really in depth. So in my topic, my. My TED Talk with the

same topic, Finding Confidence in Conflict, that's the first where.

The first time where I outline it, say, say it, and give

examples. But you. You'll notice in the TED Talk, I didn't have the steps yet.

I still figure out how to articulate it, and I was limited very

much in time. So with the book,

that was my opportunity to go a lot deeper. And in the book, too, I

think one of the things that I. I really like the most about it is

that, number one, we talk about the psychology not only as it applies

to other people, but you. That's why it's called Finding Confidence in

Conflict, because for me, it doesn't make sense to give recipes to people who are

afraid to get in the kitchen. If I just tell you how to negotiate,

but you're too afraid to do it, then it doesn't matter. So the first half

of the book is all about helping people to feel more confident in those difficult

conversations. And then with the framework, it's designed not only for the

external negotiations, but also for the internal negotiations.

And so you go through the exact same process when you're negotiating with

yourself, acknowledge and validate emotions, get curious with

compassion, and join problem solving. And so it helps you to regulate your emotions.

It helps you to get clarity. And then when the actual external

negotiation happens, you have that clarity, and you can be more effective.

Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this was a really good framework

that I really picked up on, and it really just stood out to me.

Yeah. Yeah. So the book. The book. Is that something that

came out on the back of the podcast? Because I realized that your podcast

has been running for many years now, so I can imagine that the

podcast inspired your Amazon book. Yeah,

it's just a constant build, because I started with the

podcast in 2016, and then I did the Ted Talk in

2017, then I did the book in 2018.

And so it's just constantly building that. That content library

and building on the feedback I get, because I love the

fact that every time I post, I get comments. Oh, people like that

one. All right. I posted something. Nobody liked that. Okay.

Not talking about that anymore. You know, and so it's just

constant feedb loop offering things, seeing how people

respond, and giving more of the things that they like. And so that's just how

I built the library. Wow. I mean, it's really impressive. It's an

impressive library that you've. That you've built over time. And I'm sure now

there's, like, a nice little snowball effect that's taken place, and you're

now reaping all the benefits of everything that you put the work into

over the past few years. Yes. It's one of the things I would always

say is that the difference between crazy and genius is successful.

And I was crazy for a long time, Adrian, for a while,

but it worked. And I remember talking to one of my friends, and he was

saying, because I was. It was at the beginning of the business, money is. Isn't

coming in the way that I'd like. And he said, listen, you have

to plant seeds and plant seeds, and then you keep on nurturing those seeds,

and eventually you'll be able to harvest those Seeds. And I remember saying,

but Brian, I'm hungry now.

But you know, you just have to, you have to trust the

process, keep on investing. And then again, like you said, it's the snowball

effect. And I was worried at the beginning of the year because I

was saying the, the snowball's starting to roll. I could actually for the first time

see on the calendar there's money coming in, so I don't need to worry about

payroll. Everybody's getting paid. Well, yeah, let's take a step back.

Everybody always got paid. Whether or not I got paid, that was another question,

you know, but finally I could see on the calendar for the next six months,

we're good. And then it was great. And then Covet

happened. It was, it was so funny because I was getting on a plane

and presenting all the time, like almost every week.

And I was like, man, everything's going so well. What could possibly go wrong?

And then Covid hit and we just had to pivot. And the thing is,

we, we just kept on providing high level content.

It's like, okay, people can't pay from things right now we're going to give stuff

away for free. We're still going to focus on investing in our

audience, helping people, being there. And then once the,

the companies were able to loosen the strings when it came to training,

we were the first people that they thought about because not only were we providing

relevant content the whole time, but we pivoted at the beginning.

Everybody's working remote. We don't know how to do that. All right, I'm focusing my

content on virtual negotiations. Oh, my goodness. We're having social

unrest in the U.S. now is how to have difficult conversations about race. People

are fighting in politics now. It's how to talk about politics. Wherever

people need me, that's where I'm going to be. And the competition is staying standing

still. Fantastic. And that's why I was saying it must be a fantastic year for

you because the whole year has just been conflict in on different

levels, you know, and you know, and it's been so relevant and your content

has been super relevant to apply to all those different areas, whether it's

Black Lives Matter, whether it's Covid, whether it's the US Election, whether it's

racism, you know, you name it. I think your frameworks and

your content and your insert, your institute has, you know,

content to deal with pretty much all of those things that's taking place. And

it must be really timely for you. You really does. Yeah,

it's, it's been a fun ride. You know, the roller coaster. Sometimes

you don't know where it's going. It's like, okay, we're going up. Oh, we're going

down. When are we going to stop going down?

Twists and turns and it always comes back. But it's been fun

and I'm just happy to be able to be there to help people. Oh, it's

wonderful. That's wonderful. And keep, keep going because, you know, value is

only going to, you know, continue to, you know, follow you. I mean, as you

continue to give value, you know, you're going to continue to get rewarded, you know,

on the back of that. And I remember listening to one of your

podcast episodes and then after, I believe you or someone

from your team was talking about how you did a conference or you did a

workshop and you compiled a book where you

gave everyone for free. Right? Was that. That's right.

And then, and then someone in the podcast, I think one of your co host

or someone, the guest said, why didn't you give that for free? I mean, there's

a lot of value there. But then you still wanted to serve, you

know, your audience. And serving your audience first will always lead to

rewards in the, in the long run. So, you know, that's something

that I can definitely take from, from that for sure. Thank

you. Appreciate that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And

one thing I wanted to say quickly before we start to wrap up,

going back to your LinkedIn course and driving change and

racism. There's one important thing that you mentioned as well. You

talked about how sleep, sleep was

something that helped you to resolve conflicts or

negotiation. And I find it quite interesting because usually if

maybe there's a complex that you're trying to resolve

internally and you're trying to resolve it, and

it's something that wouldn't allow you to necessarily fall asleep. You'd

be staying up all night. So how would sleep

help you to resolve the conflict

and the negotiation process? How do you, in your words,

how is that moving the conversation forward?

Yeah, when you think about sleep, it's fascinating. That's one of the things

I really enjoyed learning about when I was getting my degree in psychology.

And with sleep, what happens is at night, during the

REM process, it's essentially like an overnight therapy

session. That's one of the things that happens. It's emotional regulation

occurs at night, night. And so getting a good night's sleep is one of the

easiest ways to feel better physically, emotionally, in

every type of way. And sometimes it's you that needs to take A

nap. And sometimes it's the other person who needs to take a nap.

And so one of the easiest things that I did in order to make a

lot of these difficult conversations easier is I would just say, all right, you know

what? I've gathered a lot of information. I appreciate that. Let's come back tomorrow

and let's continue the conversation. And even if people are kind of, like,

hot and really high in emotions, usually they come back the

next day a little bit better. I think that's a very good point, Kwame,

because usually something may happen in my life, and

I'd want to. I would want to resolve it there and there. But then sometimes

I'm just like, Adrian, sleep on it, wake up, see how you feel,

and then, you know, take action. And usually the action

I take the morning after tends to be a lot better than the one I

take when I'm in the. When I'm in the mood, when in the moment. And

I just want to resolve something because I think as guys, as men, you know,

with problem solvers, we're fixes. We just want to fix something now and get it

over and done with. We don't really want to wait. But then I think it's

just learning to be patient and wait for the right results. I think

that's the key in achieving success.

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean,

Kwame, I just want to thank you for coming on the show. I'm

quite conscious of time. Before I let you go,

just wanted to ask, did you have any announcements? Is there any final

words you want to leave audience with? Well, I'll leave them with this.

The best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And

so just remember, conflict is an opportunity, so you can take advantage of these

opportunities to improve your life, get what you want and deserve. And so

I encourage you to reach out to me. Follow me on LinkedIn.

Check out the podcast Negotiate Anything and the book and the TED Talk, both

with the titles of Finding Confidence in Conflict. No

problem at all. So I'll make sure we'll have all the. All the links in

the show. Notes on the sound of a crowd dot com. And that's the

soundofacrod dot com Kwame. Christian, thank you so much

for coming the show. I'm really excited to have you on board today.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Adrian. You're welcome. All right, take care.